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on this episode of skeptic Oh Rupert

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sheldrick returns to skeptic Oh to talk

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about his latest book science set free I

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think all these questions of the

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spiritual are not very deep in these

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questions they're right there under the

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paper thins surface of it survival of

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consciousness I mean that immediately

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for any man on the street as well as any

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scientists immediately launch us into

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deep questions of the spiritual I don't

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know how you get around that although

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the science is very relevant to these

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issues it doesn't nap in such a way that

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you know to be an atheist you've got to

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be a kind of dork in style materialist

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ought to be a religious person you've

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got to be a duelist I think what we're

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heading for us in a post materialist

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worldview which is what my book is

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trying to point way towards we could

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have a holistic way of looking at things

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a scientific investigation of things

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which leaves these bigger questions open

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host aleksic Harrison on

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today's episode we welcome Rupert

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Sheldrake back to skeptic Oh dr.

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sheldrick has a new book out as a matter

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of fact I think today might be the

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launch day for it in the US it's called

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science set free and the set free is

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from materialism and he poses many

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interesting questions to the

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conventional ideas science is married to

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with regard to materialism interesting

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book from a fascinating guest here's my

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dialogue with dr. Rupert children today

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we welcome back to skeptic Oh biologist

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and author dr. Rupert sheldrick he's

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here to talk about his latest book the

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science delusion or if you're here in

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the US you'll find it at amazon under

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the title science set free Rupert

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welcome back and thanks for joining me

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hey good to be with you again well as

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folks who are longtime listeners of this

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show probably know you were not only the

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first guest on skeptic oh but your work

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was certainly a source of inspiration

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for the show and now all these millions

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of page views and downloads later I want

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to again thank you for helping to send

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me on this journey it's been it's been

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wonderful and I certainly appreciate the

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guidance that you've given along the way

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well I'm really impressed with what

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you've done Alex I think that you've

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moved this whole debate to a new level

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because you've been able to bring in

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people from both sides and you know open

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up these questions and before that there

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were people in warring camps and who

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didn't talk to each other I think yours

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is probably the only platform which

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gives you know free fair hearing to all

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points of view in this controversial

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area well speaking of warring sides

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that's probably a great segue into your

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latest book and I wanted to in the

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introduction their kind of highlight

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this title change because I find it

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quite curious i understand that as an

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author you can't always control the

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whims of a publisher who looks to sell

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more books but

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wow what a what a change from the

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science delusion and everything that

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that conjures up to a big old smiley

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face science set free any thoughts on

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that well in Britain and my original

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title was to do with the dogmas of

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science and and in a liberating science

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from dogmas but my British publishers

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were very keen to call it the science

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delusion because of course that plays

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off the title of richard dawkins book

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The God Delusion and the book is not an

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answer to Dawkins and it's not I mean

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he's mentioned a few times in the book

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but it's certainly not a kind of

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polemical response but the sales and

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marketing team in Britain my publishers

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said that the book would sell twice as

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many if it was called the science

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tribution compared with my original

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title and so they twisted my arm and I

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agreed to it and I mean I I'm okay with

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that title but in the US the publishers

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didn't want to call it the Science

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Division first of all Richard Dawkins

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and his book the contribution of much

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less well known in the US and they are

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in Britain everybody's heard of it in

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Britain in the u.s. quite loss of heard

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of it but you know even when I'm talking

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to friends of mine in the US and in

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Canada sometimes I say you know the god

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delusion by richard dawkins and they say

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Richard who and they're simply he's

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simply not as well known except in the

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kind of atheist rationalist crowd he's

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very well known there and the other

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thing is that the people who haven't

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heard of him or his book and who

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wouldn't get the allusion to the god

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delusion and they were afraid that many

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people in the US would interpret this as

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a kind of right-wing cracked pro

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creationism anti-mutant climate change

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because there's a kind of anti-science

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movement in the US which doesn't really

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exist in Europe and they thought people

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would miss identify this book as a

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polemical attack on science in fact it's

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prosigns it's trying to advance science

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and scientific agenda by

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helping to free it up from the dogmas

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that are holding it back so it's not

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anti-science its presence and sunset pre

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captures the meaning the intention of

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the book better actually great great I'm

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glad you think so and I think the book

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is pro science and I definitely want to

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talk about that and I guess the way into

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that is to pull apart this word science

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you've spent a good deal of time talking

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about it in the history of science and

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the philosophy of science but of course

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as soon as we get in there were kind of

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burdened with this science as a position

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vs science as a method and as much as

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we'd like to kind of look at it in

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purist terms and say it's a methodology

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and it's really just a tool kit it also

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does represent something in the public

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discourse we have science is a position

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so how did you kind of handle that in in

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your book or what did you seek to do

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with this idea that of being pro science

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well you see I'd like three the science

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as a method approach i think scientist

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the best method we have for looking into

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things and inquiring into things in a

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cumulative way in a but it's held back

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by dogmas and it took me a while to

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realize just what those dogmas are

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because when you're learning science

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somebody that nobody says here are the

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ten dogmas know you've got to believe

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these and they're not usually spelled

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out and most people aren't even aware

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that they're dogmatic assumptions most

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people within science and outside sounds

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think that these are truths scientific

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truth and many people who believe in

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science they often say I believe in

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science and think that other people

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religious people have beliefs but by

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contrast those who believe in science or

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the scientific worldview know the truth

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and so that's a problem and it's the

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dogmas making the dogmas explicit first

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that was the challenge and then what I

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do in the book is turn them into

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questions so I'm not saying this dog

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is wrong I'm saying let's take it as a

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question not as a fact for example the

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doubler the mind is inside the brain the

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mind is the brain becomes a question is

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the mind confined to the brain the dogma

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matter is unconscious becomes is natural

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unconscious the dogma the total amount

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of matter and energy is always the same

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becomes the question is the total amount

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of natural energy always the same and

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when one turns them into questions and

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looks at the evidence the facts what

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science itself has shown it turns out in

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every case these dogmatic assumptions

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are simply assumptions and they're not

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just assumptions they're actually wrong

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and yet they're the foundations of

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science as it's currently practiced and

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and most people aren't even aware

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they're making those assumptions so

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that's really what my books trying to do

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and when I tournament questions and all

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sorts of new kinds of science become

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possible still using the scientific

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method still using evidence still using

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scientific procedures reason and logic

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and all the rest of it but not banned to

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this narrow framework which is holding

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anything back you know I want to push

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that just a little bit further because

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early on in the book you state that

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Sciences intellectual prestige is almost

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unchallenged those are your words and I

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wonder if there isn't really a flip side

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to that at some level that's true and at

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a nother level it's equally true that

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science has been fundamentally

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discredited in recent years so we can

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look at climate gate or we can look at

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peak oil or even UFOs and ghosts even

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evolution all those are topics that have

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kind of come to the fore and science has

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had their say and in one way or another

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has come out of it pretty battered as a

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result I think the average person

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walking around certainly in the US will

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nod their head with the intellectual

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prestige of science nonsense but when

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you really speak to them privately that

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they just don't put a lot of stock in

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science I think that's more in the u.s.

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than in most other places in China and

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India and in

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to Europe they still do but I think that

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you know that what makes science is

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prestige so great is not so much the

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scientific content of science but the

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fact that we all use things like

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cellphones and computers and fly on jet

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planes and watch TV and that kind of

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thing these technological achievements

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completely transforming the planet and

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who they are but I think I think people

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are able to understand technology and

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engineering and say wow this is great my

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new iphone 5 is fantastic and they're

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able to separate that from the

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quote-unquote scientist who stands up

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there and says this or that about

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climate change or about any of these

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other topics that then turn out to be

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not only provably wrong but just kind of

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on the surface of it's silly I mean the

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idea of free will or consciousness or

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any of these things that wind up with

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your propositions just looking rather

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silly I think people have really

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internalized the extent to which science

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just doesn't have these answers I mean I

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think there's some to some extent that

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may be true but the fact is in many of

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the areas where scientific dogmas

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prevail they're not really challenged

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very much they're mostly challenged in

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areas like consciousness medicine and in

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some of the applications of science but

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some of these I mean the conservation of

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matter and energy the idea that memories

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are stored inside the brain the idea of

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the laws of nature of fixed quite a lot

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of these other dogmas are not very much

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discussed and I think that it'sit's when

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one looks at the whole picture the broad

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picture 1 seized a consistent pattern a

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lot of the problems that arise from

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science and its public image at the

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moment are because of its dogmatism and

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and also because of the way in which

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science has actually pursued which is

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not really a culture of open debate and

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discussion but a kind of authoritarian

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system so I did the book anyway is an

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attempt to look at the dogmas and in a

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way that I hope will help those who've

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already begun to question science and

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for those who haven't to show that

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things could

286
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be very different from the way they are

287
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now and potentially about much better

288
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you know if someone reads your book one

289
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of the propositions that you make that

290
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comes to the forefront pretty quickly is

291
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materialism this idea that your mind is

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equal to your brain you are this

293
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biological robot but you point out I

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think quite convincingly how flawed this

295
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idea really is but I'm not sure that you

296
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answer the next question that I seem to

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encounter most with people that I talk

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to and that's how can this be questioned

299
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you know so people say gee okay sounds

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very persuasive what you're saying but

301
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how can these people be so fundamentally

302
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wrong about such an important question

303
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how can these guys be so wrong these the

304
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guys we look up to these guys we prop up

305
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this is what everything's built on how

306
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can it be so wrong well I think the

307
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simplest way of answering that is to

308
00:13:19,429 --> 00:13:16,529
look at the history of it and the the

309
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history of it is that in the 17th

310
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:21,300
century the Scientific Revolution which

311
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gave us science as we know it was

312
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revolutionary precisely because it broke

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away from the earlier view which was

314
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that nature was organic the earth was

315
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like an organism the universe was like

316
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:34,829
an organism animals and plants were

317
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truly living beings with Souls where'd

318
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animal comes from the national word

319
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animal for soul so the previous view is

320
00:13:46,579 --> 00:13:44,339
that nature's of live and organic the

321
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machine theory which is what modern

322
00:13:51,650 --> 00:13:48,449
science was based on in the 17th century

323
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said nature's not alive and organic it's

324
00:13:57,650 --> 00:13:54,660
its mechanical and unconscious matter

325
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sunk in mechanical animals and plants

326
00:14:01,579 --> 00:13:59,100
are just machines the Earth's and

327
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machine human bodies and machine at the

328
00:14:06,049 --> 00:14:03,119
only exception in the whole universe

329
00:14:08,769 --> 00:14:06,059
that's not a machine is the human mind

330
00:14:11,749 --> 00:14:08,779
which is not material not physical and

331
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and God and the angels views a part of

332
00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:13,829
spiritual reality everything else is

333
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mechanical and unconscious that's

334
00:14:21,739 --> 00:14:18,269
Cartesian dualism and that was the

335
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dualism between people and nature humans

336
00:14:26,929 --> 00:14:24,149
and other animals spirit and matter

337
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which science was based on for two or

338
00:14:32,269 --> 00:14:30,029
three centuries and how materialism

339
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:32,279
arose is the materialist said we don't

340
00:14:36,319 --> 00:14:34,410
want this mysterious spirit that you

341
00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:36,329
can't measure or touch and it's not in

342
00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:37,350
space and time

343
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:39,660
instead of two things matter and spirit

344
00:14:45,020 --> 00:14:42,330
or body and mind does any one thing

345
00:14:47,930 --> 00:14:45,030
matter unconscious matter already

346
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:47,940
defined as unconscious mind doesn't

347
00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:49,680
exist as something separate from nature

348
00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:51,840
and gods and angels don't exist anyway

349
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:53,870
they're just figments of the imagination

350
00:14:59,800 --> 00:14:57,510
and so they collapsed the steel ism into

351
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the monism a single thing materialism

352
00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:04,260
matters the only reality and and that

353
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:05,670
doesn't make much difference for

354
00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:07,890
engineering or making iPhones and things

355
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but it does make a lot of difference if

356
00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:11,550
one's trying to understand the nature of

357
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the human mind or consciousness and

358
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that's of course the biggest problem

359
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:18,270
with materialism it matters unconscious

360
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how come that we are conscious and they

361
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:22,800
have to say that consciousness is either

362
00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:25,530
an illusion or it doesn't actually do

363
00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:27,990
anything it's just a sort of like a

364
00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:30,150
shadow around their physical activity of

365
00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:32,460
the brain and so consciousness becomes a

366
00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:34,200
huge problem and embarrassment from

367
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:36,540
materialism it's in fact called the hard

368
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:40,650
problem in philosophy of mind and so are

369
00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:43,110
they materialists have claimed the

370
00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:45,630
prestige of all modern science and

371
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:48,150
technology their least successful when

372
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dealing with an actual human minds or

373
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,730
consciousness and so it's not as if

374
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material isms been very triumphant in

375
00:16:00,590 --> 00:15:57,750
that area it's been extremely untrim

376
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front it's a problematic bogged down in

377
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:03,450
endless debates and problems and of

378
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:05,010
course that is the problem that

379
00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:07,440
underlies many of the themes discussed

380
00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:11,400
on skeptic 0 in the skeptic podcasts and

381
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:13,950
on the website because if the mind is

382
00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:16,770
nothing but the brain then things like

383
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:19,080
telepathy and other psychic phenomena or

384
00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:21,810
not to exist because they imply the

385
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:23,550
influence of the mind at a distance

386
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:26,730
beyond the brain and so the materialist

387
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:28,800
assumption then leads to a dogmatic

388
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:31,170
denial of psychic phenomena and an

389
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:33,930
attempt at all costs to deny or rubbish

390
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:37,410
the evidence and so a lot of the

391
00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:39,480
dogmatic attitudes we encounter among

392
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:42,750
skeptics so-called skeptics and come

393
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:45,600
from this belief system so in it's not

394
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:48,480
just one particular belief it's part of

395
00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:50,160
a whole package of beliefs on the

396
00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:51,240
terrorist worldview

397
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:53,790
which is what my book is critiquing by

398
00:16:59,960 --> 00:16:56,220
taking the pot one by one and looking at

399
00:17:02,000 --> 00:16:59,970
the evidence and I think it does a great

400
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:02,010
job of that a very convincing job of

401
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:04,050
that I do have to just kind of play out

402
00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:07,290
if we might have to turn the model

403
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:10,020
around though instead of science driving

404
00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:12,900
this materialism in this materialistic

405
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,540
belief system if it's not the other way

406
00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:17,280
around because certainly if we look at

407
00:17:23,449 --> 00:17:20,699
the extent to which materialism is so

408
00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:23,459
amesh in our political and economic

409
00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:24,839
system in a way that would be almost

410
00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:27,660
impossible to pull it out you just have

411
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:29,040
to wonder if it's a chicken in the egg

412
00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:32,130
thing can science really rescue us from

413
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:34,350
that if if we come up with a different

414
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:36,900
worldview that suggests all the things

415
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:39,690
that lie beyond materialism can we

416
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:41,250
really get there with the kind of

417
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:43,110
political and economic systems we have

418
00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:46,890
in place I don't see why not I I mean if

419
00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:48,960
we went beyond materialism in the realm

420
00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:51,750
of medicine for example and we'd have a

421
00:17:57,950 --> 00:17:54,030
medical system that was more inclusive

422
00:17:59,390 --> 00:17:57,960
and holistic and probably cheaper that

423
00:18:01,520 --> 00:17:59,400
wouldn't please the pharmaceutical

424
00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:01,530
companies but it would certainly please

425
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,960
a lot of National Health Services and

426
00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:05,760
medical insurers if one could deliver

427
00:18:11,630 --> 00:18:09,780
better health care cheaper by getting

428
00:18:13,549 --> 00:18:11,640
breaking down the taboos and barriers

429
00:18:15,650 --> 00:18:13,559
that presently mean that only

430
00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:15,660
mechanistic medicine is treated

431
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:17,880
seriously by these funding in the search

432
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,150
agencies and I think that's perfectly

433
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:23,280
doable there's already plenty of people

434
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:25,290
doing it it's just not political

435
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:28,530
mainstream at the moment and I get think

436
00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:30,450
that would be a huge reform a difficult

437
00:18:37,070 --> 00:18:34,830
reform I think politically a non

438
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:37,080
materialists answer post materialist

439
00:18:41,630 --> 00:18:38,850
science that was more organic or

440
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:41,640
holistic and would be much more

441
00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:44,000
compatible with people's own experience

442
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:47,150
it would be much more compatible with a

443
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:49,110
healthier relationship to the

444
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:51,360
environment and I think that these

445
00:18:56,540 --> 00:18:52,890
things would probably be quite popular

446
00:19:00,409 --> 00:18:56,550
politically and I don't think that this

447
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:00,419
is materialism isn't an essential part

448
00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:04,679
of the apparatus of government stationed

449
00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:05,070
in two

450
00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:08,190
tree it is right now but materialism

451
00:19:13,149 --> 00:19:10,350
only became the predominant view within

452
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:13,159
science by the late 19th century and

453
00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:15,570
before that most scientists were

454
00:19:21,639 --> 00:19:19,320
journalists and found no problem those

455
00:19:24,259 --> 00:19:21,649
governments for journalists and

456
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:24,269
journalism I'm not a jurist myself I

457
00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:27,330
think it's too limited of you but it

458
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:28,740
meant there was more harmony between

459
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:30,690
science and religion they lived in kind

460
00:19:36,019 --> 00:19:33,210
of separate compartments materialism

461
00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:36,029
leads to an onslaught in its more

462
00:19:41,060 --> 00:19:38,700
militant forms on any form of religious

463
00:19:43,159 --> 00:19:41,070
belief and that's deeply upsetting

464
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:43,169
politically for a lot of people and

465
00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:44,970
that's why in the u.s. does this kind of

466
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:48,289
religious right backlash which is

467
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:50,970
largely confined to the US but I think

468
00:19:57,289 --> 00:19:53,730
one can only see the context for that in

469
00:19:59,799 --> 00:19:57,299
in a kind of militant materialism which

470
00:20:02,119 --> 00:19:59,809
asserts that science disproves God

471
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:02,129
evolution shows there's no such thing as

472
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:06,240
God and science is right therefore God

473
00:20:10,159 --> 00:20:08,370
doesn't exist and Richard Dawkins was

474
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:10,169
professor of public understanding of

475
00:20:15,259 --> 00:20:13,110
science at Oxford and his atheist views

476
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:15,269
in his mind has simply equated with

477
00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:17,850
science so 20 crates science with

478
00:20:22,009 --> 00:20:20,220
atheism and materialism then you're

479
00:20:24,889 --> 00:20:22,019
going to alienate a lot of people and

480
00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:24,899
caused big political backlashes and so I

481
00:20:29,749 --> 00:20:26,700
think it's done more harm than good and

482
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:29,759
actually creates more problems far more

483
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:31,710
problems than unnecessary I don't know

484
00:20:37,399 --> 00:20:34,169
about more harm than good but I I think

485
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:37,409
personally it really brings the question

486
00:20:42,909 --> 00:20:40,080
more into focus more honestly and fairly

487
00:20:45,139 --> 00:20:42,919
more on the table than to otherwise

488
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:45,149
obscure it because that's the one part I

489
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:47,850
guess I really want to push on is at the

490
00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:50,490
end of the day the end of materialism

491
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:53,580
means the end of atheism and that's what

492
00:20:58,340 --> 00:20:55,230
we're fighting about and I think it

493
00:21:01,700 --> 00:20:58,350
requires us to seriously consider all

494
00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:01,710
sorts of questions about the spiritual

495
00:21:07,999 --> 00:21:04,529
quote unquote and again I think that's

496
00:21:10,730 --> 00:21:08,009
what this debate the underlying fight is

497
00:21:13,009 --> 00:21:10,740
all about so don't we need to be more

498
00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:13,019
upfront about that and particularly in

499
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:15,860
these alternative sciences like

500
00:21:20,660 --> 00:21:18,510
parapsychology don't we have to

501
00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:20,670
deal with that head on let me take that

502
00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:22,440
one small step further I mean to me the

503
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:24,420
implications are clear if consciousness

504
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:27,510
survives death which seems to be most

505
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:30,240
likely true then that's just as just

506
00:21:34,570 --> 00:21:32,670
about every religion throughout time has

507
00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:34,580
told us and if there is some

508
00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:36,840
hierarchical order to consciousness

509
00:21:42,020 --> 00:21:39,720
again something that seems to be

510
00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:42,030
indicated by the data we have then that

511
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,100
sure sounds like something that we would

512
00:21:48,860 --> 00:21:46,320
call God most religions would call God

513
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:48,870
so aren't these issues aren't these

514
00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:51,690
topics these spiritual topics really

515
00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:53,820
right there under the surface of that

516
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:54,990
and isn't that what we're really

517
00:22:00,410 --> 00:21:57,090
fighting about well I guess it's as

518
00:22:02,890 --> 00:22:00,420
simple as that and because for example

519
00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:02,900
take parapsychology among

520
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:04,700
parapsychologist sometimes

521
00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:06,570
parapsychologists and materialists and

522
00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:10,020
atheists others are questions other than

523
00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:12,030
but is sorting but Rupert that's just

524
00:22:16,670 --> 00:22:14,160
because they've sold out to try and get

525
00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:16,680
some scientific legitimacy they've you

526
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:19,020
know adopted these atheistic ideas in a

527
00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:20,730
way that I think I i I'd like you to

528
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:22,590
point out one of them that has any kind

529
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:25,440
of consistent theory for how atheism

530
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:28,100
could possibly be compatible with

531
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:30,330
survival of consciousness I mean what

532
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:32,130
supersize I mean what we mean there are

533
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,290
several quite eminent parapsychologist

534
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:36,720
who are atheists and Dick Behrman in

535
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:39,510
Holland for example Richard brauchen who

536
00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:41,220
used to be at the Rhine center now at

537
00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:43,580
the University of Northampton in England

538
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:46,470
Damien Broderick whose rights popular

539
00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:48,780
books on and science fiction and it

540
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:51,150
there's a lot about parapsychology he's

541
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:53,130
an atheist to the materialist but does

542
00:22:58,880 --> 00:22:56,370
any of that make any sense to you well

543
00:23:01,520 --> 00:22:58,890
the thing is that it does actually I

544
00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:01,530
mean what they add may who needed the

545
00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:03,060
Stargate research he's in it

546
00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:04,950
materialists an atheist and yet an

547
00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:07,800
eminent parapsychologist so there isn't

548
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:09,950
a simple correlation between

549
00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:12,630
parapsychology and and religious belief

550
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:16,860
and now what they hope for and what I

551
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:19,530
think is a real alternative is that the

552
00:23:27,020 --> 00:23:21,810
narrow dogmatic materialism we now have

553
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,030
could be replaced by a kind of organic

554
00:23:32,029 --> 00:23:29,970
holistic worldview which wouldn't

555
00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:32,039
necessarily imply

556
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,169
the existence of God it would be perhaps

557
00:23:40,129 --> 00:23:36,720
pantheistic or animistic without being

558
00:23:41,810 --> 00:23:40,139
theistic orbea stick and so I think

559
00:23:45,379 --> 00:23:41,820
there's an intermediate position which

560
00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:45,389
is not either just atheistic materialism

561
00:23:49,789 --> 00:23:47,700
or full blend religion and spirituality

562
00:23:51,649 --> 00:23:49,799
I think there is an intermediate

563
00:23:56,659 --> 00:23:51,659
position where I think it could still be

564
00:23:58,609 --> 00:23:56,669
possible to be an atheist and but not on

565
00:23:59,960 --> 00:23:58,619
the basis of this narrow dogmatic

566
00:24:02,419 --> 00:23:59,970
materialism there's on a much more

567
00:24:05,989 --> 00:24:02,429
sophisticated form of materialism you

568
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:05,999
sound much less convincing in that

569
00:24:10,639 --> 00:24:07,919
argument in that position I don't think

570
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:10,649
that's your position and I just is not

571
00:24:15,019 --> 00:24:12,960
my position but but what I don't want

572
00:24:17,749 --> 00:24:15,029
you see I think it's really important to

573
00:24:19,609 --> 00:24:17,759
D couple arguments about atheism and

574
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:19,619
religion which get people passionately

575
00:24:24,769 --> 00:24:22,289
involved with articles of personal faith

576
00:24:26,659 --> 00:24:24,779
and personal experience I think we can

577
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:26,669
decouple it from religion but but from

578
00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:28,440
spirituality I think that's part of the

579
00:24:33,229 --> 00:24:30,779
problem I think all these questions of

580
00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:33,239
this spiritual are not very deep in

581
00:24:37,549 --> 00:24:35,340
these questions they're right there

582
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:37,559
under the paper thins surface of it

583
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:40,710
survival of consciousness if we just

584
00:24:44,419 --> 00:24:42,090
look at the data and we say well that

585
00:24:46,729 --> 00:24:44,429
seems to suggest that yeah consciousness

586
00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:46,739
survives death I mean that immediately

587
00:24:51,349 --> 00:24:49,049
for any man on the street as well as any

588
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:51,359
scientists immediately launches into

589
00:24:55,339 --> 00:24:53,609
deep questions of the spiritual I don't

590
00:24:57,919 --> 00:24:55,349
know how you get around that well I mean

591
00:24:59,810 --> 00:24:57,929
survival of consciousness is you know

592
00:25:02,119 --> 00:24:59,820
one aspect of religion or spirituality

593
00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:02,129
but there have been spiritual people

594
00:25:07,609 --> 00:25:05,070
including many Jews for thousands of

595
00:25:09,529 --> 00:25:07,619
years who are religious and spiritual

596
00:25:11,599 --> 00:25:09,539
but don't believe in survival of

597
00:25:13,789 --> 00:25:11,609
consciousness so again there's not a

598
00:25:16,339 --> 00:25:13,799
hundred percent correlation between

599
00:25:18,289 --> 00:25:16,349
these points of view you know even at

600
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:18,299
the time of Jesus one of the great

601
00:25:23,299 --> 00:25:20,070
debates going on at the time the New

602
00:25:24,859 --> 00:25:23,309
Testament was being formulated in life

603
00:25:27,589 --> 00:25:24,869
of Jesus and then in the subsequent

604
00:25:30,259 --> 00:25:27,599
discussions was there the Sadducees the

605
00:25:32,539 --> 00:25:30,269
temple priests didn't believe in

606
00:25:35,149 --> 00:25:32,549
survived all those the Pharisees did and

607
00:25:36,859 --> 00:25:35,159
this was a really big debate and that

608
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:36,869
debate still goes on in the in the

609
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:40,590
Jewish community so it's it's even there

610
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:44,090
both sides are devout religious people

611
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:47,330
a spiritual experience and and dimension

612
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:50,770
so I think it's quite important to

613
00:25:56,620 --> 00:25:54,110
decouple these although the science is

614
00:25:59,380 --> 00:25:56,630
very relevant to these issues it doesn't

615
00:26:01,390 --> 00:25:59,390
nap in such a way that you know to be an

616
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:01,400
atheist you've got to be a kind of dork

617
00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:03,440
in style materialist ought to be a

618
00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:05,150
religious person you've got to be a

619
00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:08,630
duelist and or I think what we're

620
00:26:12,970 --> 00:26:11,270
heading for is in a post materialist

621
00:26:15,370 --> 00:26:12,980
worldview which is what my book is

622
00:26:17,620 --> 00:26:15,380
trying to point way towards we could

623
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:17,630
have a holistic way of looking at things

624
00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:19,809
a scientific investigation of things

625
00:26:25,389 --> 00:26:22,940
which leaves these bigger questions open

626
00:26:27,310 --> 00:26:25,399
and for example in one chapter of the

627
00:26:29,019 --> 00:26:27,320
book where I'm dealing with the dogma

628
00:26:31,870 --> 00:26:29,029
that memories are stored as material

629
00:26:34,210 --> 00:26:31,880
traces inside the brain that becomes the

630
00:26:37,450 --> 00:26:34,220
question our memories stored as material

631
00:26:40,029 --> 00:26:37,460
traces in brains and I myself don't

632
00:26:42,389 --> 00:26:40,039
memories are stored in veins I think

633
00:26:45,639 --> 00:26:42,399
that brains and more like tuning devices

634
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:45,649
no more like TV receivers and like video

635
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:48,529
recorders now that has that's really a

636
00:26:52,750 --> 00:26:50,210
scientific question how his memory is

637
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:52,760
stored and we can do experiments to try

638
00:26:58,269 --> 00:26:55,490
and find out hi it is how memory works

639
00:27:01,389 --> 00:26:58,279
it has religious implications because

640
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:01,399
materialism says if memories are stored

641
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:03,200
that memories are stored in brains the

642
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:05,210
brain decays at death therefore memories

643
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:07,010
wiped out at death there's no

644
00:27:13,029 --> 00:27:09,710
possibility of any kind of survival

645
00:27:14,919 --> 00:27:13,039
personal survival without memory and so

646
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:14,929
from materialists it's a simple two-step

647
00:27:19,090 --> 00:27:17,090
argument memories are stored in brains

648
00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:19,100
the brain decays at death therefore

649
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:21,350
memories wiped out of death therefore

650
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:23,529
all fairies of survival reincarnation

651
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:26,450
purgatory the last tranche meant you

652
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:28,730
know all these all fairies are wiped out

653
00:27:32,860 --> 00:27:30,710
whereas if memories are not stored in

654
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:32,870
brains if they depend on the resonance

655
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:36,080
process then the memories themselves are

656
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:37,700
not wiped out of death they're

657
00:27:42,250 --> 00:27:39,770
potentially accessible that doesn't

658
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:42,260
prove they are accessed that there is

659
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:44,690
personal survival it just means that's a

660
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:46,850
possibility whereas with materialism

661
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:49,490
it's an impossibility so one position

662
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:50,809
leaves the preservative leaves the

663
00:27:55,870 --> 00:27:52,490
question closed and the other leaves it

664
00:27:57,820 --> 00:27:55,880
open one last question dr. sheldrick

665
00:28:00,840 --> 00:27:57,830
what do you think

666
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:00,850
the future for academia visa V

667
00:28:06,399 --> 00:28:03,440
materialism it is again it seemed so

668
00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:06,409
image so institutionalized at this point

669
00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:08,990
I know that you've mentioned that your

670
00:28:14,110 --> 00:28:11,870
son is studying for his ph.d first of

671
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:14,120
all congratulations to him on that but

672
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:16,640
let's say he came to you and said he

673
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:19,330
wanted to pursue a career in academia

674
00:28:26,409 --> 00:28:22,820
what advice would you give him for

675
00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:26,419
trying to one either get along with the

676
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:29,000
system as it is or or change it in the

677
00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:31,010
direction that you'd like to see change

678
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:34,190
happen well he's doing his PhD in profit

679
00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:37,120
ecology in a way that's not particularly

680
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:39,529
reductionist it's a more holistic kind

681
00:28:44,919 --> 00:28:42,769
of ecological fieldwork approach so he's

682
00:28:49,139 --> 00:28:44,929
not confronting these questions in a

683
00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:49,149
direct personal way but i think that the

684
00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:51,980
there are plenty of people in academic

685
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:54,830
science who are not materialists one of

686
00:29:00,210 --> 00:28:56,690
the points I try to make in my book is

687
00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:00,220
that a great many scientists nowadays a

688
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:02,809
not materialists they're not atheists

689
00:29:07,409 --> 00:29:05,450
the culture of science and indeed of the

690
00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:07,419
academic world is generally speaking

691
00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:11,000
atheistic and materialistic and but

692
00:29:15,399 --> 00:29:13,190
that's the kind of surface culture what

693
00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:15,409
people pay lip service to in public in

694
00:29:19,299 --> 00:29:17,929
private there's a great many people with

695
00:29:21,159 --> 00:29:19,309
different views there are a lot for

696
00:29:22,899 --> 00:29:21,169
spiritual but not religious there are a

697
00:29:25,060 --> 00:29:22,909
lot to our religions there are lot

698
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:25,070
you've had mystical experiences that are

699
00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:28,000
not to have psychic experiences and

700
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:31,190
there are lot to been to alternative

701
00:29:36,669 --> 00:29:33,679
practitioners and take seriously various

702
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:36,679
alternative healing methods and in fact

703
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:38,960
at all those up and I think they'd be

704
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:41,809
the majority of people within science a

705
00:29:46,450 --> 00:29:43,730
further point is that if we look at

706
00:29:50,019 --> 00:29:46,460
young scientists today the scientists of

707
00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:50,029
the future last year India graduated two

708
00:29:54,340 --> 00:29:51,529
and a half million science and

709
00:29:56,110 --> 00:29:54,350
engineering at graduates China one and a

710
00:29:58,930 --> 00:29:56,120
half million the u.s. half a million

711
00:30:01,149 --> 00:29:58,940
Britain 100,000 but in Britain and the

712
00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:01,159
u.s. about a third of them at graduate

713
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:04,190
level were Indians Chinese and Koreans

714
00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:07,010
so the majority of young scientists in

715
00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:09,620
the world today are not European or

716
00:30:15,999 --> 00:30:11,590
American more there

717
00:30:18,269 --> 00:30:16,009
asian and the Chinese have an ambiguous

718
00:30:20,619 --> 00:30:18,279
attitude some a materialist some

719
00:30:23,109 --> 00:30:20,629
interests and does and traditional

720
00:30:25,149 --> 00:30:23,119
Chinese beliefs most Indians the great

721
00:30:26,979 --> 00:30:25,159
majority of Indian scientists and pretty

722
00:30:30,989 --> 00:30:26,989
straightforward Hindus and Muslims when

723
00:30:33,969 --> 00:30:30,999
they're off duty they're not

724
00:30:36,639 --> 00:30:33,979
materialists and atheists so most

725
00:30:38,139 --> 00:30:36,649
scientists today simply don't fit into

726
00:30:40,239 --> 00:30:38,149
that position but when they're at work

727
00:30:42,639 --> 00:30:40,249
they put they don't mention that they

728
00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:42,649
pretend to go along with that overall

729
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:45,049
you know that kind of what seems like a

730
00:30:49,450 --> 00:30:47,450
consensus reality as soon as they're off

731
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:49,460
duty they revert to completely different

732
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:51,679
views I would say the majority of

733
00:30:56,589 --> 00:30:54,049
scientists in fact have that lead a

734
00:30:59,379 --> 00:30:56,599
split life what I'm proposing is that

735
00:31:01,269 --> 00:30:59,389
and scientists come out speak much more

736
00:31:03,070 --> 00:31:01,279
freely about their own experiences and

737
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:03,080
interest to their colleagues and they'll

738
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:04,580
find that a great many of the others

739
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:06,590
share these interests or have things

740
00:31:11,169 --> 00:31:08,210
that they're they can talk about

741
00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:11,179
fruitfully that this materialist

742
00:31:17,950 --> 00:31:16,190
dogmatism is a facade behind which there

743
00:31:20,379 --> 00:31:17,960
are some true believers Richard Dawkins

744
00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:20,389
is certainly one and he's done us all

745
00:31:24,009 --> 00:31:22,220
the service by making these views so

746
00:31:28,229 --> 00:31:24,019
explicit and expressing them so

747
00:31:30,879 --> 00:31:28,239
forcefully and but I think the majority

748
00:31:33,539 --> 00:31:30,889
don't have those views I think of it as

749
00:31:36,909 --> 00:31:33,549
being rather like Russia under Brezhnev

750
00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:36,919
you know in that late communist phase of

751
00:31:42,219 --> 00:31:40,129
the Soviet Union in public almost

752
00:31:44,889 --> 00:31:42,229
everyone went along with Marxism and

753
00:31:47,009 --> 00:31:44,899
dialectical materialism a few dissidents

754
00:31:50,529 --> 00:31:47,019
stood out against it and were sent to

755
00:31:52,299 --> 00:31:50,539
psychiatric institutions but and the

756
00:31:54,129 --> 00:31:52,309
majority just went along with this as if

757
00:31:57,310 --> 00:31:54,139
they believed it and they dutifully

758
00:31:59,529 --> 00:31:57,320
claps at public meetings to speeches by

759
00:32:01,419 --> 00:31:59,539
the party leaders and so forth but when

760
00:32:03,639 --> 00:32:01,429
the Soviet empire collapsed how many

761
00:32:06,009 --> 00:32:03,649
really believed it probably any quite a

762
00:32:09,129 --> 00:32:06,019
small minority and I think it's rather

763
00:32:11,469 --> 00:32:09,139
like that in science and so I think that

764
00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:11,479
when fee people feel free to come out

765
00:32:15,669 --> 00:32:13,820
and speak freely and when scientists

766
00:32:19,659 --> 00:32:15,679
feel they don't have to pay lip service

767
00:32:21,310 --> 00:32:19,669
to this dogma and they it's not as if

768
00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:21,320
the whole academic world will suddenly

769
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:24,590
oppose it as one person they went a lot

770
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:25,490
of people being

771
00:32:28,570 --> 00:32:26,990
obviously relieved and I think the

772
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,580
academic world would get a new lease of

773
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:30,559
life through people being able to speak

774
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:32,960
and think more freely that's certainly a

775
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:35,510
wonderfully optimistic future that you

776
00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:37,850
paint and let's hope we get there Rupert

777
00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:39,980
tell folks what's coming up for you

778
00:32:45,490 --> 00:32:42,140
again the book available right now at

779
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:45,500
amazon science set free ten paths to new

780
00:32:51,130 --> 00:32:47,840
discovery what's coming up in terms of

781
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:51,140
your speaking lecture circuit your seems

782
00:32:53,710 --> 00:32:52,640
like we're always hearing about cheer

783
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:53,720
and you're popping up with some new

784
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:55,610
YouTube videos and the like which is

785
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,890
great to hear what's coming up for you

786
00:33:03,160 --> 00:32:59,600
in the near future well in the near

787
00:33:05,740 --> 00:33:03,170
future in San Francisco September the

788
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:05,750
7th at california institute of integral

789
00:33:10,060 --> 00:33:07,910
studies i'm giving a book launch lecture

790
00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:10,070
for this book which is published in the

791
00:33:14,919 --> 00:33:12,200
US and canada on September the fourth

792
00:33:19,090 --> 00:33:14,929
and sep 10 to the 8 i'm giving a

793
00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:19,100
week-long workshop on it the following

794
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,470
weekend at the Esalen Institute in Big

795
00:33:26,220 --> 00:33:23,840
Sur California I'm doing a weekend

796
00:33:29,049 --> 00:33:26,230
workshop on the themes of this book and

797
00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:29,059
those are my main things in September

798
00:33:35,770 --> 00:33:31,910
then I'm going back to England and in

799
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:35,780
Canada right now and I'm going to the US

800
00:33:41,919 --> 00:33:39,710
again in november and i'm going to be

801
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:41,929
doing some talks in New York mainly at

802
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:44,720
the open center I'm not doing anything

803
00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:46,730
in between and my publisher said there's

804
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:48,350
no point trying to do book promotion

805
00:33:55,150 --> 00:33:52,090
before a presidential election in the US

806
00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:55,160
so that so I'm not coming back to the

807
00:33:59,260 --> 00:33:56,630
week after the presidential election

808
00:34:01,810 --> 00:33:59,270
when hopefully the hanging chads will

809
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:01,820
have been sorted out and I'll be able to

810
00:34:07,450 --> 00:34:04,100
you know things are things should be

811
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:07,460
getting back to normal and so that's the

812
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:09,710
main thing and meanwhile there will be

813
00:34:16,690 --> 00:34:13,730
various youtubes and and discussions

814
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:16,700
about the book there's already some

815
00:34:22,540 --> 00:34:19,760
lectures online about the book from my

816
00:34:24,190 --> 00:34:22,550
presentations in England and anyone

817
00:34:30,070 --> 00:34:24,200
who's interested can see them there on

818
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:30,080
my website www sheldrick org and anyone

819
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:31,730
who's interested in knowing where i'll

820
00:34:36,129 --> 00:34:34,159
be speaking what i'll be doing can sign

821
00:34:39,340 --> 00:34:36,139
on from by can look at the website or

822
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:39,350
sign on for my e-newsletter which I send

823
00:34:41,950 --> 00:34:39,650
out

824
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:41,960
every couple of months but it gives an

825
00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:44,570
update on my various activities for

826
00:34:49,450 --> 00:34:46,790
those who are interested great I get

827
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:49,460
those emails and it is nice that they're

828
00:34:52,810 --> 00:34:50,810
on a regular basis but you don't

829
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:52,820
overwhelm folks with useless information

830
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:55,610
so it's very well done well dr.

831
00:34:59,080 --> 00:34:57,290
sheldrick thanks again for joining us

832
00:35:01,420 --> 00:34:59,090
today best of luck with the book and

833
00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:01,430
hopefully we'll we'll touch base with

834
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:03,670
you again in the not too distant future

835
00:35:09,070 --> 00:35:06,050
good thanks very much and all the best

836
00:35:10,660 --> 00:35:09,080
to you and a great work you do thanks

837
00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:10,670
again to dr. shelter for joining me

838
00:35:14,740 --> 00:35:12,440
today on skeptic Oh a couple of

839
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:14,750
questions i guess i tee up I think the

840
00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:17,510
main thrust of this book is topics that

841
00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:19,640
we've covered over and over and over

842
00:35:24,220 --> 00:35:22,220
again in terms of materialism but I

843
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:24,230
particularly like the way that he's

844
00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:26,150
drawn out these assumptions that

845
00:35:30,850 --> 00:35:28,670
materialism is based on and turn them

846
00:35:33,490 --> 00:35:30,860
into rather provocative questions that

847
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:33,500
even when one's first hears them you're

848
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:35,450
kind of drawn to say yeah why would I

849
00:35:40,210 --> 00:35:38,330
assume that that's true so I think it

850
00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:40,220
might be interesting to flesh some of

851
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:42,110
those out on the forum and discuss those

852
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,910
questions if someone would like to do

853
00:35:48,370 --> 00:35:45,920
that that'd be much appreciated and the

854
00:35:49,810 --> 00:35:48,380
second topic I want to discuss is this

855
00:35:52,210 --> 00:35:49,820
last one that I brought up with him and

856
00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:52,220
keeps popping up for me at least and

857
00:35:58,810 --> 00:35:55,070
that is this connection between a post

858
00:36:01,420 --> 00:35:58,820
materialism scientific world and the

859
00:36:04,090 --> 00:36:01,430
spiritual so again to me it's clear that

860
00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:04,100
as soon as we get past materialism we

861
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:06,680
have to confront head on these questions

862
00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:09,710
of spirit are their spiritual beings

863
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:11,540
what happens to consciousness after we

864
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:13,850
die and i'm not advocating that we

865
00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:15,920
approach those from at all a religious

866
00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:17,990
standpoint but from a scientific

867
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:20,750
standpoint the best way we can it just

868
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:22,910
seems to me clear that those questions

869
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:25,250
come to the forefront right away as soon

870
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:28,190
as we make that step beyond materialism

871
00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:29,930
so it will be interesting to see what

872
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:32,660
you have to say about that of course the

873
00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:34,970
place to connect is on The Skeptical

874
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:40,220
website it's at sk EP tik Oh calm as I

875
00:36:44,350 --> 00:36:42,110
mentioned in a previous episode there's

876
00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:44,360
a new version of the comment section

877
00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:46,670
that makes it really handy to follow

878
00:36:51,940 --> 00:36:49,820
threaded conversations so I invite you

879
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:51,950
to check that out in the comment section

880
00:36:54,490 --> 00:36:53,090
on the website and then

881
00:36:56,650 --> 00:36:54,500
of course there's the form which is very

882
00:36:58,780 --> 00:36:56,660
popular place for folks to kind of hash

883
00:37:00,910 --> 00:36:58,790
out some of these ideas either one of

884
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,920
those places are the place to go and of

885
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:03,200
course you can always email me or

886
00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:05,570
connect with me on Facebook I try to get

887
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:07,190
to as many of those as I can it can't

888
00:37:10,990 --> 00:37:09,650
always get to all of them but I try well

889
00:37:13,180 --> 00:37:11,000
that's going to do it for this episode i

890
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:13,190
have several interesting shows coming up

891
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:15,110
be sure to stay with me for all of that

892
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:17,390
be sure to tell your friends and blog

893
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:19,520
right about skeptical whenever you can

894
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:21,440
it's interesting that we've had a steady

895
00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:24,800
uptick in skeptic Oh listenership but

896
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,140
especially in the last month or two it's

897
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:28,880
really kind of kicked into gear and

898
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:30,710
maybe that's just because I've been

899
00:37:34,210 --> 00:37:32,570
putting these out every week I don't

900
00:37:38,050 --> 00:37:34,220
know how much longer I can keep that up

901
00:37:41,530 --> 00:37:38,060
but I will try so again that's it for